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2018.10.11Parker Надо бы все эти 子不曰 собрать уже в отдельный топик... и черную кошку, и труп врага, и эпоху перемен...

А про "труп врага" что не вяжется?
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2018.10.11Kane А про "труп врага" что не вяжется?

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2018.10.11Parker http://polusharie.com/index.php?topic=2295.msg1575083#msg1575083

Я думал, что само, якобы, такое выражение не существует. Я честно даже и не знаю, кто его произнес впервые.
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Вот такое интересное обсуждение этого изречения в блоге одного журналиста из New York Times:

A Chinese Curse?
BY NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF SEPTEMBER 24, 2008 10:02 PM September 24, 2008 10:02 pm
Lately with the financial markets in disarray, I keep hearing people refer to the supposed Chinese curse: “May you live in interesting times.” I’ve heard it a half-dozen times in the last few days, and The Times even ran an article referring to it.

The problem is that I’m not sure it is a Chinese curse. Every American knows the expression, but when I lived in China, I periodically asked Chinese about it, and no one ever had heard of it. I know there are lots of Chinese readers of this blog, so help us out: Do any of you know of a supposed ancient Chinese curse, “May you live in interesting times.” Any suggestions for the wording in Chinese (please write in both pinyin and characters)?

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zarf September 25, 2008 · 3:42 am
Interesting. Like the known canard that the esquimoux have 28 words for snow, I would wager that these false citations, assuming that the interesting times is also one, come to life in a speech or sermon, and are then endlessly repeated by the ignorant.
It is sort of reminiscent of the McCain/Palin falsehoods. Yes.

Oldfart September 25, 2008 · 8:13 am
I always thought it was an Irish curse. Sounds like an Irish curse to me.

And, Zark, just how many words DO the eskimos have for snow, oh enlightened one?

And, Mr. Kristof, since you have commenting off for your Somaly Mam story, which House bill was it that Bombast and Biden are blocking? I’d like to look it up and see what they have to say about it.

JF September 25, 2008 · 10:06 am
We need more individuals like Somaly in the world and in high-profile positions so others can be trained to do what she is doing to help stamp out the sex trafficking. We also need our world leaders behind this effort. No woman, man or child should be held against their will for any reason. If we didn’t live in a male dominated society, I wonder if sex trafficking would be so acceptable around the world. This is not a civil human behavior, nor should it be rationalized in any form or manner–It’s deplorable.

Steamboat September 25, 2008 · 1:18 pm
Could it be a bad translation of “祝生活愉快” in Chinese?

Aaron J. Owens September 25, 2008 · 2:44 pm
I agree with #2. I have heard this line often from a newspaperman and publisher in Bulgaria. He always attributes it to the Irish.

fooy84 September 26, 2008 · 1:22 am
if “May you live in interesting times” used in english to express one’s feeling of depression or bad luck …..

will it be “生不逢时” in chinese?(literarily it means born in bad times)

Amy Xu September 26, 2008 · 4:34 am
Mr Kristof, I do not remember have ever hearing that. I searched Chinese website and copied below article for your reference. It seems like it was translated from an ancient Chinese article(Ming Dynasty/Author Feng Meng Long) by Robert F Kennedy.

Below article and comments are copied from //zhidao.baidu.com/question/40581845.html

出自:Robert F Kennedy翻译的:明·冯梦龙《醒世恒言》第三卷:
“却说莘善领着浑家阮氏和十二岁的女儿,同一般逃难的,背着包裹,结队而走。忙忙如丧家之犬,急急如漏网之鱼。担饥担冻担劳苦,此行谁是家乡?叫天叫地叫祖宗,惟愿不逢鞑虏!正是: 宁为太平犬,莫作乱离人! ”


宁为太平狗,不做乱世人。 I rather be a dog in peaceful times, then live as a man (woman) in turbulent times. (I added this one in after learning that the expression “may you live in interesting times” has become very popular.)
Although the expression “may you live in interesting times” is often referred to as a “popular Chinese curse”, I do not recall having heard that, at least not in that form .

Scott September 26, 2008 · 4:21 pm
@2: I got this from wikipedia: The first reference to Eskimo having multiple words for snow is in the introduction to The Handbook of North American Indians (1911) by linguist and anthropologist Franz Boas. He mentions that Eskimos have four words: aput (“snow on the ground”), qana (“falling snow”), piqsirpoq (“drifting snow”), and qimuqsuq (“snowdrift”), where English has only one (“snow”). English has more than one snow-related word, but Boas’ intent was to connect differences in culture with differences in language. END QUOTE

I don’t know that “28 words” is actually a well known legend. It’s probably more of an adaptation of a well known legend. It would have arisen from the way people will recall the gist of something and make up (or exaggerate) the specifics when passing it along. This kind of BS is harder to get away with in the internet era. Wiki doesn’t note exactly how many words they have today but it does note that there is more than one Eskimo language.

Stephen Leggatt September 26, 2008 · 5:15 pm
Here’s what the wikipedia (currently) has to say about it:

One possibility is that the above phrase is from the following Chinese saying “时势造英雄”(pin-yinConfusedhi shi zao ying xiong), which means heroes(leaders) are made over turbulent times.

No known user of the English phrase has supplied the purported Chinese language original, and the Chinese language origin of the phrase, if it exists, has not been found, making its authenticity doubtful. One theory is that it may be related to the Chinese proverb, “It’s better to be a dog in a peaceful time than be a man in a chaotic period” (寧為太平犬,不做亂世人; pinyin: níng wéi tàipíng quǎn, bù zuò luànshì rén).[citation needed]

The saying has also been attributed to the fictional Chinese storyteller Kai Lung invented by the Edwardian, English author Ernest Bramah, though this too has yet to be documented.[1]

The Yale Book of Quotations gives a citation for the phrase “May you live in interesting times” as follows “American Society of International Law Proceedings vol. 33 (1939).” The Yale Book of Quotations also states that “No authentic Chinese saying to this effect has ever been found.” [2]

Evidence that a slight variant of the phrase was in use “many years” before 1936 is provided by an attestation from 1939. Frederic R. Coudert, a Trustee of Columbia University, presented opening remarks at a meeting of the “Academy of Political Science” in 1939. In his remarks the phrase “May you live in an interesting age” is labeled a Chinese curse. Coudert cites a letter from Austen Chamberlain, half-brother of British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, for introducing him to the curse.

…Like others posted here, I had heard it attributed to the Irish, but there appears to be no support for that position, either.

无忌 September 29, 2008 · 3:18 am
I lean towards Stephen’s“时势造英雄”(pin-yinConfusedhi shi zao ying xiong) — Sometimes we also say“乱世出英雄”(luan4 shi4 chu1 ying1 xiong2)。

For those who want to be heros, turbulent times are when their ambitions come true. For the rest“宁为太平犬,莫作乱离人”is more real.

Leon of Brisbane December 8, 2008 · 10:03 pm

Judged by the people quoted this phrase in 1930’s, it should be real that China do have such a saying, but you are right, you cannot translate “may you live in an interesting times” back into Chinese to expect people in China know this curse.

The curse might come from “may you line in an interesting age” which came from a curse that an adult or people at some age to act like a child. “活回去了“,or “活轉去了”—go back to your early age, or interesting age. There’s another saying like I am and “old man child“ or “老小“,sometimes means an old man has a funny heart, or it can mean a dementia person,or an old fool.

The gap here is “interesting age” and “interesting times”. Interesting age in China may mean young age or wonder age, funny age, or interesting age“童真, or 童趣“, while age and times might be mixed in later interpretation in English.

You need a very good translator to be able to translate a language and then ask another very good translator to translate it back that people can recognise some similarity.

lee zc January 8, 2009 · 4:42 am
I guess “nan de gu tu” 难得糊涂
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Kane, а что вы ожидаете, обсуждения? Материал полезный, если кто-то захочет разобраться, но обсуждать тут особо нечего.

Сама фраза малоизвестная, из разряда "есть такое китайское выражение ..." в какой-нибудь заумной статье. Похоже, на западе она чаще мелькает.

Надо объединить с этой темой https://bkrs.info/taolun/thread-309562.html
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